Episode Notes | Transcript | AskTheGuest
We have Josh Schimel, Professor of Environmental Studies at the University of California Santa Barbara on our podcast.
In this Podcast, Professor Schimel first tells us what the Study of the Environment is, and then takes us through a brief history of how we got here, areas of environmental studies, the challenges, the skills needed to pursue Environmental Studies in College and the available opportunities when you graduate.
Hi-Fives from the Podcast are:
Episode Title: About Majors: What is Environmental Studies? With Prof. Josh Schimel of UC Santa Barbara.
Episode summary introduction: The goal of this series is to serve as a primer for High Schoolers about a College Major, through our conversations with Faculty Experts in the various US Colleges and Universities.
We continue this series with Environmental Studies, with Josh Schimel, Professor of Environmental Studies at University of California Santa Barbara.
In particular, we discuss the following with him:
Topics discussed in this episode:
Our Guest: Josh Schimel, Professor of Environmental Studies at the University of California Santa Barbara.
Memorable Quote: “...as a science student, I thought it was about, you know, just equations and math and write a report. So those very practical communication and quantitative skills are very important than I think, to develop.” Prof. Schimel.
Episode Transcript: Please visit Episode’s Transcript.
Suggestions for you: STEM Podcasts.
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Transcript of the episode’s audio.
<Start Snippet> Prof Josh Schimel 0:14
During those transitions, it's always awkward, uncomfortable and challenging cars. There are social and societal enterprises that benefit from the old technology and they don't like to be replaced. But car companies are just you know, they just see the future and they're going electric and at some point, the, the switch flips.
That is Josh Schimel, Professor of Environmental Studies at the University of California Santa Barbara.
Hello, I am your host, Venkat Raman.
Today’s episode is on Environmental Studies, on our podcast series on “College Majors” to serve as a Primer for High Schoolers.
We all go about our daily lives thanks, due in large part, to the Environment.
It is hence no surprise that the Environment is a huge part of our daily discourse - in society, in government, across national boundaries, and in colleges & universities.
Venkat Raman 1:26
We are fortunate to have Professor Schimel with us on our podcast.
Venkat Raman 1:31
In this Podcast, Professor Schimel first tells us what the Study of the Environment is, and then takes us through a brief history of how we got here, areas of environmental studies, the challenges, the skills needed to pursue Environmental Studies in College and the available opportunities when you graduate.
Venkat Raman 1:51
Before we jump into the podcast, here are the High-Fives, Five Highlights from the podcast:
[What is Environmental Studies?]
Environmental Studies is about understanding the interaction between human systems and natural systems. Planet Earth does what it does human societies and cultures do it we do within ourselves. And we each influence the other.
[How did we get here?]
People woke up to that and we were beginning to see large scale environmental problems. There was large, extensive starvation in India because their agriculture couldn't produce enough food. We saw air pollution and water pollution problems in the United States. And it moved into the universities. Unsurprisingly.
[Biggest Environmental Challenges]
Climate change is really I think, the overarching environmental problem that we face right now. But that encompasses things that we've paid attention to in the past.
[Beating the Smog]
You know, when I was a little kid back in the 1960s, smog was a common thing. Smog is kind of rare now because our cars are clean. That was that was combining science and policy to make it a win win for everybody.
[Skills Needed]
Math skills are certainly important because to deal with science, you need to be able to deal with quantitative information. I think writing skills are also really fundamental. I think many science students don't understand that.
Venkat Raman 3:38
These were the Hi5s, brought to you by College Matters. Alma Matters.
Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.
Venkat Raman 3:49
Now, without further ado, here’s the podcast on Environmental Studies with Professor Josh Schimel!
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Venkat Raman 3:56
Let us begin with a basic question: What is Environmental Studies?
Before we dive into our conversation with Prf Josh Schimel, I would like to share how Prof Pete Alagona of the Department of Environmental Studies at UCSB sees it.
Environmental Studies is about. It's about several things but the the crucial things you have to understand is that there are really a few things we're trying to do. One is to really study the relationships between people and their broader environment, their biophysical environment, their social environment, how do humans interact within those spaces? And how does their interactions with our shape, society shape who we are and shape our collective futures? Environmental Studies also tries to solve environmental problems through science and through applied professions through a variety of other means that we use to try to understand problems, develop solutions, test those theories. and then implement them. And then there's a third thing that I think is even broader, which is to try to understand the systems, the social and ecological systems that produce and produce environmental problems through politics through economics, and the interaction, those social systems.
Venkat Raman 5:24
Now, here is Professor Schimel.
Josh 5:27
My definition of environmental studies captures, I think, a core of what Pete said, but I usually would express it simply by saying Environmental Studies is about understanding the interaction between human systems and natural systems. Planet Earth does what it does human societies and cultures do it we do within ourselves. And we each influence the other. Humans influence a planet and the planet influences humans. That interaction among those systems is really where I just define sort of the field of environmental studies. And so I agree entirely with Pete. It encompasses understanding college Earth Science, agriculture, and the science side of things. It also involves incorporating understanding human cultures and psychology and how we actually deal with the environment. And then it's an academic program that spins off into training students to work in this space.
Venkat Raman 6:36
Let's sort of move forward and talk about how we got into all this. I mean, I don't want to call it a mess, but how, how was the history of this whole thing about the environment?
Well, the, the environmental movement really started in the late 1960s. With that kind of a counter culture and concerns about pollution and an overpopulation. I think it's simpler and further back than that, in some ways. In ecology, we have a concept of a carrying capacity of any particular habitat. For a population, how many rabbits can a particular field called Planet Earth has a carrying capacity for humans. And I've long thought that we actually passed an ecological carrying capacity somewhere around the time of World War Two, that we have so many people on the planet that we have a hard time supporting us all without degrading the ecosystems that support us our ability to produce food, clean water, and to maintain a healthy environment. And somewhere around the 1960s. People woke up to that, and we were beginning to see large scale environmental problems. There was large, extensive starvation in India because their agriculture couldn't produce enough food. We saw air pollution and water pollution problems in the United States. And it moved into the universities, unsurprisingly. And so environmental studies as a program at UCSB was launched in, you know, the very late 1960s. And we started taking students in the early 1970s very impassioned faculty and a very impassioned student body who really cared about the environment, and they wanted to study it.
Venkat Raman 8:36
Let's sort of talk a little bit about what does it comprise of, what, what are, when we say environmental studies, what all does it encompass, and maybe a little bit about each of those different areas.
So it encompasses almost everything potentially. Because as I say, I see environmental studies about understanding the interface between natural systems and human systems. So to do environmental studies, well, you need to understand something about how each of those systems operates on their own. So you need to understand some ecology and some earth science and how Planet Earth functions. And you also need to understand how humans function as bodies as individuals. And then we need to really add the true Environmental Studies dimension that and that is to understand the interactions between those. How do humans influence the environment that involves things like policy, it involves land use agriculture, but also then how the environment influences the decisions and the systems that humans operate in? How are we constrained by things like water supply, energy supply? So all of these things weave together And students can take any of a number of different kinds of pathways to explore this. There's a certain core, core basic material that everybody has to have some understanding of, and then you can kind of pick up your own expertise and take it where it will go.
Venkat Raman 10:15
You know, listening to this, what what would be sort of the top few challenges? I know, there's a lot of stuff going on. But what are some of the biggest challenges right now that maybe your programs are working on, or, you know, the whole community at large is working on?
Climate change is really, I think, the overarching environmental problem that we face right now. But that encompasses things that we've paid attention to in the past. Humans use a lot of energy, we use a lot of water. And by using fossil fuels, we're increasing carbon dioxide and methane and nitrous oxide in the atmosphere. And that's causing the climate to warm. That simple atmospheric physics. But in doing so, Systems Act in complicated ways. So you know, why is Santa Barbara seeing less rainfall? Warmer temperatures actually can increase evaporation and so more moisture in the atmosphere, but it comes down in different places than it used to. And it comes down more intensely. And it's sometimes it's more extended droughts and other places. So humans aren't super sensitive to temperature directly, but we're really sensitive to changes in water supply. I can tell you, I, I've, I've lived in Alaska, I've seen 60 degrees below zero, you still live in minus 40. Routinely, other people live at 120. You know, hot day. So people, some say, well, so it's getting a little warmer. Why the big deal? Well, the warming is this average, but it shows up in things like hotter, hotter, and drier dries. And I often say in California, you know, I don't worry about the 100 degree days. I worry about the 1000 degree days. And people of course, look at me like I'm crazy. I'm saying, you know, when the landscapes burning, it's 1000 degrees, they go Oh, right. Yeah, fire. But of course, when your house is burning down, it's not an Oh, right fire. It's like, Oh, my God, my world's falling apart. Right? There's so many of the other environmental problems from water supply, to clean water, to food availability, all these things get swept up in a changing climate.
Venkat Raman 12:49
What kind of successes have we had? You said, It's 50 years since the program started. And in, in general, how have we as human beings and as scientists, what, what kind of successes can we point to in terms of these environmental challenges?
Well, I think probably, there are several really huge successes that we can point to, and that sort of point in a direction of good environmental policy. Aircraft quality in American cities. You know, when I was a little kid back in the 1960s, smog was a common thing. Smog is kind of rare now, because our cars are clean. That was that was combining science and policy to make it a win win for everybody. The other at a global scale is back in the 70s. And even the 1980s, the ozone hole was seen as a huge threat. Nobody pays any attention to that anymore. Because we've done such a good job of removing chlorofluorocarbons, from from our, we don't use spray cans of things. And so the main thing that was causing the ozone hole is is no longer being produced. We don't use it in the ozone hole is making progress. Right? So when we combine science with good policy, there are Win Win solutions that allow us all to do better.
Venkat Raman 14:26
Now, taking the same train of thought, right? I mean, in both these examples that you gave, what was interesting was that it came down to something reasonably finite and discrete right. Now, are there such opportunities as you look at the challenges ahead? I know climate change is a big thing. But Are there parts of it or things that we can work on to get that kind of success?
I think there are parts that I think we're seeing I think the idea of gasoline powered cars are going to become kind of like some other obsolete technology like horses and buggies. And someday that we're moving much more to electric and sustainable and renewable power supplies as a result of that. During those transitions, it's always awkward and uncomfortable and challenging because there are social and societal enterprises that benefit from the old technology, and they don't like to be replaced. But car companies are just, you know, they just see the future and they're going electric, and at some point, the switch flips. And so instead of this being a challenge, and oh, my God, we can't do this to work. But this is just what we do. And any number of these things like you know, who thinks about not wearing a seatbelt when you're in a car, right? moking is another of those things that you say a huge source of human health. And mostly people just don't think about not doing it anymore. It's just not. So the the social structure changes, and, and policy issues suddenly become easy, that had once been very difficult. That's my hope is that we'll see this kind of step change in the way we approach these things. And I think it's coming to a degree.
Venkat Raman 16:35
Let's switch gears a little bit. There are these opportunities and challenges that high schoolers are now looking at and saying, Well, I want to I want to pursue that. So what do they need? What What kind of skills do they need? What should they develop? What kind of things should they be working on?
I think there are a number of things. Math skills are certainly important. Because to deal with science, you need to be able to deal with quantitative information.
Josh 17:10
I think writing skills are also really fundamental. I think many science students don't understand that. But you know, I have a PhD and soil science. And I know all the way up until I became a PhD student. I never paid any attention to writing it was, you know, you wrote up the the experiment once you're done with it. And I became a working professional and discovered that my entire life is about my writing. About writing papers and writing proposals and most of the way interact with the world is by by writing, and I kind of have to do it well. And I was way behind the curve. When I started as a PhD student, I never would have dreamed that I end up writing what's become a very successful book on science writing, and how to tell the stories that we communicate with. Yeah, because it is what we do once we become working professionals. And that was never obvious to me, as a science student, I thought it's about you know, just equations and math and write a report. So those very practical communication and quantitative skills are very important than I think, to develop, and to not disregard the material that our English and history teachers are trying to teach us. Because it doesn't seem like the chemistry that I'm interested in.
Josh 18:41
The flexibility, I think, is a really important thing to recognize that pretty much everything we do plays into what we do in environmental areas, you don't understand some history, you need to understand how human society function, just as much as you need to know about ecology and energy systems. We make the decisions of what kind of energy systems to use as societies based on the kind of human factors of what we like and value, not just what's the most purely energy efficient there, you know, best technology from some other kinds of perspective.
Venkat Raman 19:25
So given that skills, I mean, how would you chart a course study course in college, when what what should they do when they, you know, what discipline should they be applying for? Or how do you go about, I guess, getting to participate in the environmental studies?
Well, our, our program starts at freshman years. So you just need to come in from high school with, you know, basic high school education. What we do in the first year is there is this series of courses that kind of focuses On the overall vision of environmental studies and encompassing both the natural systems ecology systems and the human systems and societies and culture, and then we have, of course, that's the human environment and we have one, that's the kind of the physical environment, that we we start with the integrated vision, then we kind of start pulling it apart, and then later on, pull it back together again. But there's a lot of different things that you can bring to that table. So long as you understand that, ultimately, Environmental Studies is about putting the pieces together again, it's not just about being an environmental scientist, it's about connecting the environmental science to human societies and how they function. And that requires having some understanding of that other side, as opposed to I'm just dumping the data on you. And now you're gonna go deal with it, because people don't, don't do that.
Venkat Raman 21:08
At the end of undergraduate program of describing I ready to do make good contribution to this thing, or do you think there's a need to go further and do graduate programs on search.
Our students have done just about everything conceivable. Many of them go straight into into careers based on their on their undergraduate degree, working companies and entities across the entire spectrum. Others decide, you know, and go into a PhD, or they go to law school, or they go and get that advanced training. I think probably many of our students at some point in their careers, will take time to do some advanced training. But but most of them, I think, go straight into the workforce. And that can be working for nonprofits can be working for government agencies, it can be working for private companies. The range is almost anything you can conceive of probably one of our students has done it.
Venkat Raman 22:21
If you were to proceed and do graduate programs, what what what kind of things should they be thinking about?
Well, that that really does depend on the direction that you want to go towards. Certainly a fair number of our students have done programs in environmental science of some sort. Quite a large number of our students have gone to law school. They're all if you want them to nuture human societies and governments, you know, getting a law degree is great training for that. Others have gone into engineering, so as our technologies and really develop the hardware, other students have gone into social sciences in the humanities, yeah. Again, you can take it in any direction that really motivates you and that you want to Salamis, you maintain that grounding to the core of that understanding of how humans interact with our environment.
Venkat Raman 23:24
So maybe at this point, I'd like to sort of turn inwards and talk about your sort of journey into this. Maybe start with why, why you got into the whole area of environment and environmental studies.
Yeah, I came in through a roundabout route. And in high school, I discovered chemistry. And in college, I was a chemistry major, I was quite sure that I wanted to go on in pure chemistry. And while I love the outdoors, I had no real interest in environmental science, or environmentalism as a career path. In my senior year in college, I discovered that I didn't love chemistry enough that it was not something that got me in my heart and I graduated college with no idea of where I wanted to go forwards on. I knew what I didn't want to do, and I did not know what I did want to do.
I got lucky and I got a job as a research assistant in an ecology research lab. Based on my chemistry background. And and discovered environmental science. I discovered ecology that I could use the kind of chemists mechanistic skills to explore how soils worked and supplied nutrients to plants and could support food crops.
And so I went to do a PhD in soil microbiology. I had never had a course in soil science and had never had a course. In biology after high school, I had none of the background, except I knew I knew how to do research. And so I had no trouble being accepted into, into, into graduate programs. And I did a PhD in soil microbiology and, and ended up at the University of Alaska doing Arctic science before eventually moving to California to be with my girlfriend at UCSB where I got a job in environmental studies program. But as an ecosystem scientist, and become more and more of the sort of environmental studies scholar over time, more of this focus on on the human dimensions of, of science and issues. And of course, it's if you're an Arctic scientist, it's not hard to see climate change right in your face, because it's changing and in front of us. So a very roundabout route. And I think that's a useful thing for a high school student to remember is educated or meant, and some experiments fail or go in directions, you had dead dissipated. But for me, what the main thing I learned in college was that I was on the wrong path. And I was lucky in finding a right path.
Venkat Raman 26:26
But I guess you, you did something right there, which was that chemistry major allowed you to get a job that opened your eyes to?
Josh 26:36
A, I think that's exactly true is that gave me a core set of skills that allowed me to take advantage of to move into a place. When I when I found the questions that, you know, that appealed to me at some deeper emotional level, the kind of mechanistic analysis of chemistry appeals that a purely intellectual level, but successful career in a sex sex, excuse me, and a successful life really calls for that it works at the gut and environmental science works at the gut for me, I, their questions appealed to me.
Venkat Raman 27:18
So, you know, a question I always like to ask is, was there a time or period when you realize that you were really good at it? I mean, I see the passion that you brought to it, but was there a proficiency a skill or something that you felt? Aha, you know, this is, this is something I'm really good at.
Josh 27:43
I, I, that's a hard one. Because I think that in the pure technical skills areas, I've probably never been the best. I think the skill set that, that I have figured out that I have is I have an ability to sort of integrate things and to pull things together. And to package them in ways that really make that that larger picture visible. And that being able to, to I like described as playing scales, like a musician, I can go from the micro scale mechanistic, what are the microbes do in their scale, and I can connect that to what's happening at the whole ecosystem scale, where I'm looking at trees and landscapes. And we often talk about the importance of interdisciplinary scholarship, we rarely talk about the importance of inter scale scholarship. And at some point, I realized that I was good at that. And, and that's uncommon that most people tend to operate at one scale. And ultimately, it takes more than that.
Venkat Raman 28:56
That's, that's, that's great. Insight. Actually, I had never thought about it that way. But this is really, really eye opening.
Josh 29:04
Yeah. And I think for politicians, they also see the same thing of if you wanted to teach at the national level, you know, you work at school board, right, you know, elections as well, because what's happening in the local communities ultimately, will influence and be influenced by global and national scale events. The idea that the linking across scales of organization occurs in both human societies and in natural systems, and it's always difficult to deal with
Venkat Raman 29:40
Let me close with one last question for you. What, what has been the most satisfying aspect of all this what do you take a lot of pleasure from what's what really keeps you excited as well? I suppose.
Josh 29:57
I love people and I Love the communities that I've gotten to work in and the different places that my career has taken me to. I also love high thought to the environments, I love being able to get up to Alaska to Scandinavia, and just get to the really interesting places. And so being an environmental scientist, has allowed me to both connect with ecosystems that I love and feel just, you know, deep passion for, and also communities of people that I really care about. And both of those things have been great.
Venkat Raman 30:37
No, that's, it comes through. I mean, just talking to you about this. so fabulous. So thank you for taking the time. And I actually would love to do another one with you on writing science right now.
Josh 30:51
And that's another my passions, I'd be happy. Absolutely.
Venkat Raman 30:55
Absolutely. So I think that's another great topic. And you brought out communication as part of the skills that students need, and I think it's true for any profession that they might pursue, pursue. So with that, thank you so much. Take care. Bye bye. Bye bye.
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Venkat 31:18
Hi again!
Hope you enjoyed our podcast on Environmental Studies with Professor Josh Schimel of UC Santa Barbara.
Prof Schimel gives us a great overview of Environmental Studies, challenges and opportunities, and what it takes to pursue undergraduate study.
I hope this podcast inspires you to learn more about the Environment and Environmental Studies.
I want to thank Prof Pete Alagona of UCSB for sharing how he sees Environmental Studies.
For your questions or comments on this podcast, please email podcast at almamatters.io [podcast@almamatters.io] with the Subject: Environmental Studies.
Thank you all so much for listening to our podcast today.
Transcripts for this podcast and previous podcasts are on almamatters.io forward slash podcasts [almamatters.io/podcasts].
To stay connected with us, Subscribe to Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts or Spotify or visit anchor.fm forward slash almamatters [anchor.fm/almamatters] to check us out.
Till we meet again, take care and be safe.
Thank you!
Summary Keywords
Podcast for High Schoolers, College Major, College Majors Podcast, US Colleges, Primer for High Schoolers, Environmental Studies, Environmental Science, human societies, human systems, environmental systems, inter-scaler, Communication Skills, Writing Skills, Flexibility, University of California, UC Santa Barbara, UCSB.