Episode Notes | Transcript | AskTheGuest
Dr. Anil Menon is the Associate Dean of the UG Program in Medical Sciences.
Dr. Menon and his colleagues came up with an undergraduate program at the University of Cincinnati College of Medicine for undergrads to go through a mini-medical program, and decide if medicine is for them.
In this Podcast, Dr. Menon shares what the medical sciences undergraduate program is, Program Highlights, How to Apply, Scholarships, Career Options and Advice for High Schoolers.
Hi-Fives from the Podcast are:
Episode Title: Dr. Anil Menon of U of Cincinnati College of Medicine: What is the UG Medical Sciences Program?
Dr. Menon and his colleagues came up with an undergraduate program at the University of Cincinnati College of Medicine for undergrads to go through a mini-medical program, and decide if medicine is for them.
Dr. Anil Menon is the Associate Dean of the UG Program in Medical Sciences.
In this Podcast, Dr. Menon shares what the medical sciences undergraduate program is, Program Highlights, How to Apply, Scholarships, Career Options and Advice for High Schoolers.
In particular, we discuss the following with him:
Topics discussed in this episode:
Our Guest: Dr. Anil Menon is the Associate Dean of Undergraduate Education at the University of Cincinnati College of Medicine. Dr. Menon received his PhD at the University of Cincinnati and did his Postdoctoral Fellowship at Harvard Medical School.
Memorable Quote: “So reframe every defeat into an essential component of your growth and success. And don't look at it as a defeat. Look at it as being sort of this steel being made in a furnace.” Dr. Anil Menon.
Episode Transcript: Please visit Episode’s Transcript.
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Transcript of the episode’s audio.
<Start Snippet> Dr. Anil Menon 0:14
What happens is students do their undergraduate in anything, they can do it in music and physics in biology and anything and then they go into medical school, only to realize 20 years later that they didn't ever want to be a doctor. And it's just because their parents were kind of cocking them into it and they never had any evidence based experience before they jumped into medical school. And once you've invested all that time and money, it's hard to get out of that rabbit hole.
That is Dr. Anil Menon, Assoc Dean of the UG Program in Medical Sciences at the U Cin College of Medicine.
Hello, I am your host, Venkat Raman.
Every year about 35,000 students apply for medical school in the US, and about half of them get in, with little experience on what’s ahead.
Dr. Menon and his colleagues came up with an undergraduate program at the U Cin College of Medicine for undergrads to go through a mini-medical program, and decide if medicine is for them!
Dr. Menon, a molecular geneticist (juh-neh-tuh-cist), did his PhD at University of Cincinnati under Dr. Jerry Lingrel, the pioneer in recombinant DNA technology. Dr. Menon subsequently did a postdoctoral fellowship at Harvard.
We are privileged to have Dr. Anil Menon with us on our podcast.
Venkat Raman 2:04
In this Podcast, Dr. Menon shares what the medical sciences undergraduate program is, Program Highlights, How to Apply, Scholarships, Career Options and Advice for High Schoolers.
Venkat Raman 2:20
Before we jump into the podcast, here are the High-Fives, Five Highlights from the podcast:
[What is the UG Program in Medical Sciences?]
What if we created an undergraduate program inside of medical school like a mini medical school, and students got to do everything that medical students did but in a little lighter form.
[Program Takeaways]
It's a Co Op program. It is hands on experience. Students come to our programs do research every that is 100% of them do medical research. 100% of them work in the hospital. 100% of them do service learning. So this could be working, helping cancer patients or helping in the public health domain.
[Cost & Scholarships]
But there are large chunks of financial aid that there are given. So for example, there is one type of scholarship called the Presidential Scholarship in which they get a full free ride. They pay no tuition, the no boarding and lodging, they don't pay for textbooks and computers. Everything's taken care of so so we have a few which are all the way there. And then we have a spectrum.
[Better Med School Odds]
So yes, I do believe that the lived experience, the co op experience the actual experiential learning rather than just sitting in a classroom, they're actually in the hospital. Helping patients climb up and down stairs, get into stereotactic masks, all those different types of things does cause a medical school to look at them, you know, with a certain degree of interest.
[Advice for High Schoolers]
Be courageous. Be curious. So explore the world. And don't be afraid to explore the world. That's really important to start with. You will feel at many times that you're defeated, but you should never be defeated.
Venkat Raman 4:45
These were the Hi5s, brought to you by College Matters. Alma Matters.
Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.
Venkat Raman 4:56
Now. I'm sure you want to hear the entire Podcast with Dr. Menon.
So without further ado, here is Dr. Anil Menon!
------
Venkat Raman 5:07
If you're ready, we can jump right in.
Anil M 5:09
I'm ready. And it's my pleasure. Absolutely.
Venkat Raman 5:12
Let's talk a little bit about the program that you're involved in right now at UC Cincinnati, I mean, this undergraduate program and medical sciences, how did that come about, and it sounds like a pretty unique thing. So give us some backstory on that.
I was recruited back to Cincinnati from Harvard by the very same Jerry Lingrel, because he was setting up a giant department which had one aspect that was involved in human genetics. And he, he had known of my interest and, and my publications and things like that in this area. And so I interviewed for the job and was selected. And so I came to the University of Cincinnati. Again, this is the second time now as a faculty member in 1990. And had a very delightful research career as a research scientist, I was doing the stuff I loved, had wonderful students, postdocs, and things.
But then, somewhere along the way, I had children of my own. And I was amazed to see how complex the world had become since I was a child, or perhaps I never knew that it was complex then. And I was able to know that it was complex now, because I was now an adult, but my children and their friends seem to have a great deal of difficulty choosing the careers that they were best suited to.
Typically, what I noticed, including in my own case, was that the projections, the psychological projections of the parents often were the only things that guided their children. And I look at my own life. My parents were scientists, they were wonderful parents, but we had all those discussions on science around our dinner table. And I think that had an in a very immense role in my choosing science. Now had discussions bent on poetry, I might have been appointed.
And so I was wondering, whether is there a way for a young person to actually have some kind of evidence-based career choice. While my impact, my little world was so small that I could only work in the area of medicine and science, and things that were in the College of Medicine at the University of Cincinnati, where I had, where I had some ability to shape things, I did have the ability to shape things, and let's say a college of engineering or anything like that.
Typically, in this country, what happens is students do their undergraduate in anything, they can do it in music, and physics, in biology and anything, and then they go into medical school, only to realize 20 years later, that they didn't ever want to be a doctor. And it's just because their parents were kind of talking them into it. And they never had any evidence based experience before they jumped into medical school. And once you've invested all that time and money, it's hard to get out of that rabbit hole. So you can get in but you can't get out. It's like the Hotel California. Exactly. But you can never leave.
So it occurred to me and and I was able to convince many of my colleagues and I should actually say that I had the good fortune of being the director of this program, but this entire program runs solely because we have a terrific faculty that go with it. So there's about 40 faculty members at all levels going all the way from assistant professor to emeritus professors, and everything in between. And so I just want to give a quick shout out to all my colleagues because it is a community that has created this program and I just happen to help direct it at this point.
And so, what we said is, What if we created an undergraduate program inside a medical school, like a mini medical school All, students got to do everything that medical students did, but in a little lighter form. They take classes from professors who actually teach medical students, they have medical student mentors, they meet with residents, you know, like people in their residency in, for example, internal medicine or pediatrics or whatever it is. And, and they actually do shadowing they do they work in the hospital, there's we have a Co Op program where they get paid to work in the hospital is like a standard quality education program. And so at the end of four years, they have a really good idea of what it is to work in health care.
So it's very different, being 18 years old versus being 22 years old, it's almost an exponential difference. And they're able to use the evidence of their personal experience of their lived experience through these four years to make that decision, should I go to medical school? Do I want this? Do I enjoy this? Or would I prefer going to pharmacy school would I prefer getting an MBA or a master's in public health, or to go to nursing school, or to go to physician assistant school serve the entire spectrum of health care business, so you can get a BS in medical sciences and an MBA and you have a very grounds up understanding of how a hospital works, because you've actually pushed those gurneys. And you've actually taken those blood samples. And so you know, exactly how the heart of a hospital beats.
And so if you get BS in medical sciences, and then an MBA, in finance, you have a huge number of opportunities to work in a hospital in healthcare, and maybe make it a better system for all of us without having to be a physician. So all of these are wins for our students. So they are not, you know, just because a person chooses not to go to medical school. That's not, we don't, we don't ever make that equivalent to Oh, I didn't get into medical school. It is like I chose not to go to medical school. So we give agency to students, we allow them to walk out of that golden cage that their parents and loved ones have lovingly created around them.
When they were 18 years old, that you must go to medical school, I have so many students whose parents gave them stethoscopes on their fifth birthday, when they were five years old, the parents gave them a stethoscope. And if that isn't a projection, I don't know what is. And so, so we allow our students we give them grace. And I think that's our full word. Because grace gives a person autonomy, it respects that they are a person, and that they have thoughts. And they have they have a purpose in this world. And, and so they many of our students choose not to go to medical school, and many of our students choose to go to medical school. And I think it's important to have systems in place where it is possible to do that.
So it's a, it's a Co Op program. It is hands on experience. Students who come to our programs do research, every that is 100% of them, do medical research, 100% of them work in the hospital, 100% of them do service learning. So this could be working, helping cancer patients or helping in the public health domain like protein caloric, malnutrition, and food deserts, which are seen in many parts of both urban and rural America. And so our students work in all these areas, some of them work for your gap year in AmeriCorps or the Peace Corps, or any of these places. And I think I think it changes them. I think what a student who comes into our program becomes a fire a more textured human being who has experienced or sampled different types of careers and, and mostly, I think, found what they liked, rather than what somebody else told them to do.
Venkat Raman 15:22
Absolutely.
Venkat Raman 15:26
So, what does it take for a student to be accepted in this program? What are you guys looking for? How does that work?
It's a holistic Admission Program. But we also pay attention to a CT and SATs scores. The University of Cincinnati made the decision a couple of years ago to go test optional. That means you can if you wish to submit your AC T LSAT, but it is not a requirement. And why did we do this because we wanted the program to be accessible to as diverse a group of people as possible. There have been studies which show that AC T and SATs scores are strongly correlated with the level of resources in high schools to which the student goes. And so this basically means that if you're if you're going to a rich High School, ie a high school that happens to be in a rich District, which you know, fairly well resourced people can live in, then, then they do a better job of coaching you and taking practice tests and everything in the ACTA city. And so unsurprisingly, students do better in, in tests from wherever coaching classes and all those things exist, and you happen to be in a place where those resources don't exist, then you don't do so well. So we decided we would go test optional, if people want to submit they can. The average, we get about 1000 applicants and we take about 100, we get 1000 applicants from throughout the country, all the way from Maine to Oregon, and California, where you are now, and everywhere in between. So there's about 1000 students, we take about 100. And those are not necessarily the people who have the highest scores, I mean, they do in general have an ACD score of approximately 32. But we will reach across, if we think you're personal statement, or the letters from your high school counselor are compelling, we will reach in a holistic manner for students and, and try to do the best we can in showing them what our program looks like. Because it's not just us choosing students, we want our choose our students to choose us. And so many times, students will apply. And then they will come and visit us. We love to show students around we love tours, if you are interested, or if your audience is interested, please come and visit us, we would be delighted to give you a tour. It's uc.edu. Simply go to that portal and type in medical sciences. And you will reach our page.
Venkat Raman 18:40
The students apply to your program separately, or is it part of the general application to U Cincinnati and the market and that general application? How does it just
Anil M 18:56
Yes, you are correct. That is the apply to the common app. And this is this is what you're referring to as the general application the the the portal is actually called Common App. And so so you would need to list your priority so which what what is your list of priority schools and programs so you would need to list the University of Cincinnati and you would need to list the medical sciences program at the College of Medicine. So, there are often other programs which have the word medical and which have the word sciences so you want to make sure it is the medical sciences Baccalaureate Program at the University of Cincinnati College of Medicine.
Venkat Raman 19:49
What kind of students end up making this student body of the college I mean the college of medicine here, at least for the undergraduate studies.
They are students who will inspire anybody. They are students who have an enormous diversity of all different types. So for example, we have people from rural America and urban America, we have all different ethnicities, about 20% of our class are gen one students. In other words, people whose parents have never gone to college, have students who have never been to a big city, we have students who are New Yorkers who had hitherto never known the existence of Ohio, they lived in, in New York all their life. And so they're astonished like, what, there's a place out there. And so, so they're from everywhere. And what what I am always impressed, and just grateful for is they are young people who come with the goal of healing this world, of doing some good thing of dreaming big, of being unafraid of doing all these things, which I in fact, never did when I was their age. So I'm always in awe of them. Their courage, their smarts, their ability to, to just, you know, think of things that I never thought of. So I always feel like I'm grateful every day to meet them. And I think they're my teachers more than I am their's.
Venkat Raman 21:48
Two things, actually two, two thoughts run in my mind, but let's do one first. So, first about the cost and the financial aid and scholarships. Anything special that you guys have fear program? Or is it part of the larger university?
It is part of the larger university, but the university has a lot of different types of scholarships. So part of the reason why we wanted to do this in a public university. So in other words, why not do the medical sciences program at Harvard where I was before I came here, Harvard has a very expensive entry point. So it's, it's about you know, when you put tuition plus living expenses, and things like that, even after all the discounts, it's about 50,000 a year. So it's 200,000. Just on the undergraduate point, before you make a decision, and because the raison d'etre of the reason of existence of our program is give students a chance to, to make that decision. In other words, we want to give them the safe, the safety, and the safe environment, to make mistakes to take the wrong path. And that's all cool to do at a low cost. So I felt it was important to do it in a public university where the cost of education is within the range of most, most families, particularly in because we, we do give a lot of tuition, remissions and so forth, the entry point in most public universities in Ohio is approximately $10,000 a year, that's tuition and then then living expenses is, is separate. But there are large chunks of financial aid that there are given. So for example, there is one type of scholarship called the Presidential Scholarship, in which they get a full free ride, they pay no tuition, they no boarding and lodging, they don't pay for textbooks and computers, everything's taken care of. So so we have a few which are all the way there. And then we have a spectrum, which goes from, you know, people who come from when well resource backgrounds. You know, it's not as difficult for a parent and if there are any parents listening, this is perhaps for them. That it is better for your child to go to a public university at a lower price point to make this decision because they're going to get a Harvard or Stanford education while they're here at the University of Cincinnati, and Cincinnati Children's Hospital. Cincinnati Children's is always in the top three hospitals across the country. It's one of the best. So they get very, very good training. And most of the faculty have been trained at Stanford, Harvard, other places like that. And they can get that training at a price point, which is very affordable. So we would make the case that you're getting a Harvard education at a Ohio public university price point. And that save up your money to send your child to Harvard and Stanford for medical school. If they are very interested in going into medical school there, so you don't have to spend a fortune, both in the undergraduate and in the medical school domain.
Venkat Raman 25:46
How, you know, how many others universities offer this? Is this unique? Is this are you the only one that does this? Or are there other programs? I am asking purely because I don't, I don't know.
We? I think we may have been the first to do it. Because when the AMC director, that is Dr. Darrell Kirsch, who is the who was the director of the American Association of Medical Colleges, so that's called the AMC travels far and wide across the country and in Canada, so let's just say North American medical schools. He described it as being the first that he was aware of so you know, it's very hard. And as a scientist, there's a very important rule, absence of evidence is not evidence. And so, so I cannot categorically say that we were the first, but shall I just say that we were among the first and the AAMC has been our best advocate. And so now there are other schools that have sent their personnel, and who have asked us for advice on how to set these things up. And we wish them well, because we see this as being kind of an alternative model, to to what in psychology is called the opt in model. So the option is, where you do your undergraduate in, let's say, music or biology, and then opt in into medical school. And what we do is, we have them come in into the medical school as undergraduates and then opt out if they don't like. And I think we need to have a mix of both those types of institutions across the country, because it allows, it allows students to see what fits them best. So for example, if they are absolutely certain, it is not a projection of their parents, and they themselves want to go to medical school, and we see many of such people, these these people do exist, these exists. And we love the fact that that they know exactly what they want to do right away from the time they're, you know, very young, and then certainly go for the opt in model. Now, for our students, it's people who are not really sure. I mean, they certainly have the the ability to go to medical school, but they're not absolutely sure whether they want to go to medical school, they're willing to make the sacrifices. They're willing to sort of live someone else's life if in fact, living the life of their parent. So so for those, and it's a substantial number. I think an opt out program is better, where they just look at the evidence and make up their minds themselves. So it gives them autonomy, it gives them agency, it gives them the ability to be courageous and to go to their parents and say, Dad, Mom, I know you always wanted me to go to medical school, but I actually want to go into finance or something else.
Venkat Raman 29:27
So that's that's a, you know, interesting segue into this question now. You know, a student completes the four year program. And first question is, do you think it improves their odds of getting into medical school for a student that does want to pursue medicine?
Yes, I think it does, because they have lived experience of helping human beings in a medical context. So a medical school that sees a student so so the AAMC, the American Association of Medical Colleges, recommends that, that students, a general student does about 80 hours of clinical shadowing and healthcare exploration. Our students do about 200 hours, or actually, some of them do like 400 hours of health care, exploration, medical shadowing, all those things. So after after someone has done 400 hours, if they still want to go to medical school, it means that they really do. So they don't mind seeing bodily fluids, and they don't mind patients who are not in the best frame of mind, and they don't mind all the, you know, the dark underbelly of, of medicine. They're willing to, to overcome it all. And it's part of their purpose. So, so yes, I do believe that the lived experience, the co op experience, the actual experiential learning, rather than just sitting in a classroom, they're actually in the hospital, helping patients climb up and down stairs, get into stereotactic masks, all those different types of things, does cause a medical school to look at them, you know, with a certain degree of interest.
Venkat Raman 31:27
Let me ask the counter question. So is there a what fraction of the students don't pursue medicine over the years that you've seen. By the way, when did this program start?
We, we piloted it like, like good scientists, it's always good to run a pilot, piloted it in 2012. And then we launched the major in it, it was 2015, we piloted it for three years, collected a lot of data, then launched the major in 2015. And so all in all, we've been at it for a little over 10 years. And we've learned a lot, we've collected data, we keep in touch with our alumni, we send them surveys and all those other things.
Venkat Raman 32:19
So so what you know, so what's the distribution of students who, you know, go through the experience, and then say, this is not for me.
Anil M 32:28
So about 30% of students say, I want to do something else. So 70% of students decide that they want to go to medical school, and by and large, all of them do get into medical school, and I'm including both MD and DO programs. So, of the students that want to go to medical school, pretty much all of them go to medical school.
Now, of the 30% who choose not to go because it's a hard life, you know, they have to stay up all night, they have to deal with a patient throwing up on them, they have to deal with, you know, blood on their, on their clothes, and you know, not their clothes, but of course on their lab coats and things they have to deal with COVID During COVID This was just such a challenge. I mean, of course, we, we limited their exposure and we had we pivoted to kind of a more digital set of experiences just because of both patient safety and student safety. But, but their attendings were actually wearing PPE, yes. And they were in the COVID wards. And this was like an aha moment for many students who said that, you know, I'm not willing to do this. And so just as there were people who said that I want something which is a safer kind of job, there were an equal or slightly larger number. Who said, This is what I want to do. This is my calling in life, I want to be right there on the front lines doing this. So it was a very interesting you know, it was where the rubber meets the road.
Venkat Raman 34:17
Now, what are these, what are these 30% or so do what do they typically end up
They they do a number of different things. Some of them go to pharmacy school, some of them go to dental school, some of them go to PA school, that is physician assistant school, some of them go directly they bypass the BSN which is the bachelors in nursing and they go straight to the MSN which is the Masters in nursing programs which allows them to be a kind of an advanced nurse nurse practitioner that that pathway of nursing. Some of them go to MBA to do finance You know, hospital financing. Some of them go to, we had two students, one who went to Boston Consulting, one who went to Bain Capital to consultancy, because they're, they're very bright.
And they just, they're interested in the healthcare space. One of them is in the process of starting their own startup company. And because the healthcare space and the technology space are kind of converging, sharing, so now there's a lot of opportunities for people who are tech savvy to, you know, and young people are, in fact, often much more tech savvy than I can just speak for myself, but they're more tech savvy than I am. And, and so they they go into entrepreneurship, Digital Futures, mph programs, that's master's in health programs to look at Epidemiology and Prevention. And that's a massive field prevention and preventive health. Because our system in general is very good for acute care. And after a person has diabetes, we can amputate their legs and hands and everything else with great accuracy and success. But we're not very good at preventing diabetes. And so I think, I think it's really important to have a whole cadre of, of future health care workers who are trained in public health, and Epidemiology and Biostatistics and health promotion, and population science and all of those areas that allow us to have the population live a long and healthy life, before we eventually succumb to all the different diseases of age.
Venkat Raman 37:01
Sounds like a fantastic program.
So Anil, we're going to start winding down here. But before I let you go, what kind of advice would you give high schoolers? I know at the outset, you had some learnings for them and takeaways, but what is them as they think about college? And how should they approach a decision or approach what you are doing, which is I would medical science,
I would, I would start by saying, Be courageous. Be curious. So explore the world. And don't be afraid to explore the world. That's really important to start with. You will feel at many times that you're defeated, but you should never be defeated. All these little defeats are just making you stronger. So reframe every defeat into a essential component of your growth and success. And don't look at it as a defeat, look at it as being sort of this steel being made in a furnace. And so it is really important to do that. And last but not least, remember that you have one life. And so you might as well choose what you want to do, and live the life that you have always imagined.
Venkat Raman 38:46
This has been a fascinating conversation. Appreciate all the insights and words of wisdom and guidance. And I hope to talk to you more in the future. For right now. Take care, be safe. Thank you so much.
Anil M 39:02
Venkat, I just want to say thank you for having me. And I just also wanted to give you a shout out for doing this podcast because you are a positive influence in the life of so many young people. There can be nothing more important. I've heard your story and I'm inspired by it about how you chose to do this. Voluntarily. It was it was a calling for you. You found your purpose. And I can tell you how inspired it makes me you know, I'm always willing to be on your podcast.
Venkat Raman 39:40
Thank you so much. I mean, that's that's good to hear. Thank you for those kind words. So take care. Bye bye.
—----
Venkat 39:54
Hi again!
Hope you enjoyed our podcast on the UG Medical Sciences Program with Dr. Anil Menon of U of Cincinnati Medical School.
The Medical Sciences program sounds like a fantastic way for a student to make an evidence-based choice of medicine as a career.
The rigor, the co-op nature of the program, the access and affordability, make it very attractive for a high school student thinking of medicine as a career.
I think one of the most compelling aspects of the program is the opportunity for an aspiring medical student to realize and conclude that medical school is not for them, and still have their entire working life ahead of them, to pursue their true calling!
I hope this podcast inspires you to learn more about the University of Cincinnati’s UG Medical Sciences Program.
For your questions or comments on this podcast, please email podcast at almamatters.io [podcast@almamatters.io] with the Subject: UG Medical Sciences.
Thank you all so much for listening to our podcast today.
Transcripts for this podcast and previous podcasts are on almamatters.io forward slash podcasts [almamatters.io/podcasts].
To stay connected with us, Subscribe to Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts or Spotify or visit anchor.fm forward slash almamatters [anchor.fm/almamatters] to check us out.
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Thank you!
Summary Keywords
Podcast for High Schoolers, College Major, College Majors Podcast, US Colleges, Primer for High Schoolers, Undergraduate Program in Medical Sciences, University of Cincinnati College of Medicine, University of Cincinnati, UC.