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Episode Notes | Transcript | AskTheGuest

Hi Fives (5 Highlights) Click for 3-Minute Listen

Drs. Jenny Davis and James Chouinard are with the School of Sociology at Australian National University and nurturing Faculty Mentors.

As undergraduate students at Radford University in Virginia, Jenny Davis and James Chouinard found themselves doing community-based research at the Women’s Resource Center.

The research sharpened their understanding of Sociology and gave them the necessary foundation as they pursued graduate study and ultimately academia.

On our podcast, Drs. Davis & Chouinard talk about their UG Research at Radford University, Impact of UG Research, Pursuit of Graduate work, Experiences as Faculty Mentors, and finally the Advice for high schoolers.

Hi-Fives from the Podcast are:

Getting into UG Research
The Experience
Being a Faculty Mentor
Skills Developed with Research
Advice for High Schoolers

Episode Notes

Episode Title: Dr. Jenny Davis & Dr. James Chouinard of Australian National University: From Undergraduate Researchers to Nurturing Faculty Mentors.

As undergraduate students at Radford University in Virginia, Jenny Davis and James Chouinard found themselves doing community-based research at the Women’s Resource Center. They were excited and enthusiastic about the research and in doing so learned the research process.

Today Drs. Davis and Chouinard are with the School of Sociology at ANU and nurturing Faculty Mentors.

Drs. Davis & Chouinard join us on our podcast to talk about their UG Research at Radford University, Impact of UG Research, Pursuit of Graduate work, Experiences as Faculty Mentors, and finally the Advice for high schoolers.

In particular, we discuss the following with them:

Dr. Jenny Davis & James Chouinard’s Background
UG Research Radford University
Impact of UG Research
Being Faculty Mentors
Skills for tomorrow’s Researchers

Topics discussed in this episode:

Introducing Drs. Jenny Davis & James Chouinard, ANU [0:42]
Hi Fives - Podcast Highlights [2:18]
Professional Backgrounds [5:13]
Getting into UG Research [7:56]
Initial Research Topics [11:21]
The Research Experience [13:24]
Other Research Topics [16:00]
UG Research Takeaways [18:33]
Student Participation [22:18]
Why Sociology? [23:41]
Impact of UG Research [28:17]
Being a Faculty Mentor [32:57]
UG Research in US vs Australia [38:12]
Skills Developed with Research [41:44]
Dealing with Wrong Hypothesis [48:37]
Advice for High Schoolers [52:37]
Memories [55:19]

Our Guests: Dr. Jenny Davis is a Sociologist and Sr. Lecturer in the School of Sociology at the Australian National University in Canberra Australia. Dr. Davis received her Bachelor’s degree in Sociology from Radford University in Virginia and PhD from Texas A&M University.

Dr. James Chouinard is a Lecturer in the School of Sociology at the Australian National University in Canberra Australia. Dr. Chouinard received his Bachelor’s degree in Sociology from Radford University in Virginia and PhD from Texas A&M University.

Memorable Quote: “ The research process is so messy, and it's really hard. And you have to sort of trust in yourself that you can do hard things, you have to trust in your faculty mentors, that they'll guide you through those, those hard things ”. Dr. Jenny Davis.

Episode Transcript: Please visit Episode’s Transcript.

Recommended Episodes: UG Research

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Episode Transcript

Transcript of the episode’s audio.

<Start Snippet> Jenny D 0:14

The power of research, to be able to take, you know these kinds of abstract ideas, turn them into a turn or operationalize them into a means of collecting data. And then to take that data, turn it into not just a story but into an effect was really powerful.

Venkat 0:42 [Introducing Drs. Jenny Davis, James Chouinard, ANU]

That is Dr. Jenny Davis, Sociologist and Senior Lecturer at Australian National University in Canberra, Australia.

Hello, I am your host, Venkat Raman.

As undergraduate students at Radford University in Virginia, Jenny Davis and James Chouinard found themselves doing community-based research at the Women’s Resource Center.

They were excited and enthusiastic about the research and in doing so learned the research process.

These tools sharpened their understanding of Sociology and gave them the necessary foundation as they pursued graduate study and ultimately academia.

Today Drs. Davis and Chouinard are with the School of Sociology at ANU and nurturing Faculty Mentors.

Venkat Raman 1:43

Before we jump into the podcast, here are the Hi-Fives, Five Highlights from the podcast:

Jenny D, James C 2:18 [Highlights - Hi Fives]

[Getting into UG Research]

James and I, we met in a sociology class, we were probably the most enthusiastic sociology students in the program at the time. And so we you know, so we would talk to Jean and our other professors after class all the time, we kind of learned about the opportunities available, she very quickly kind of swept us into the projects that she was doing, and we enthusiastically joined.

[The Experience]

So and that's one of the things that like, you know, we were doing with Jeanne was something that didn't feel like it was didn't feel like it was so exclusive to the academy, it felt like we're having real world effects. And so it was really kind of exciting to be on the ground and feeling like you were doing something with the knowledge that you were receiving from university, and that, you know, that I think that would drive us and energize us.

[Being a Faculty Mentor]

And so one of the like, one of the my techniques when I engage with students, and they kind of present me with ideas is I, I never shoot anything down. And I always try to even if it's, you know, because they're working, they may not have the language right yet, or they may or maybe they're still thinking to the contrary, the concepts and the constructs by always trying to sell but you know, something of that a kernel of the idea that they're working with, even if it's a bit, even if it's a bit rough, and it needs refining. And, and I try to be enthusiastic.

[Skills Developed with Research]

it's one of the things I find so useful for getting undergraduates involved in research is it's it's one of the underdeveloped skills, or is this idea of connecting an analytical observation to in an empirical circumstance and actual data

[Advice for High Schoolers]

[I] think, you know, get in early. And I think one of the things to know about the research process is that every project has a million tasks that need to be done. And those tasks operate at different levels. So there's, so if you have zero experience in research, there's still stuff you can do that you.

Venkat Raman 4:31

These were the Hi5s, brought to you by “College Matters. Alma Matters.”

Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.

Venkat Raman 4:42

Now, I'm sure you want to hear the entire podcast with Drs Davis & Chouinard.

So without further ado, here are Dr Jenny Davis and Dr James Chouinard!

-----------------

Venkat Raman 4:55

And maybe the best way to do this is to kick it off with just two little bit of background, each one of you could just say a few words about maybe how you got here. So, Jenny, if you already want to kick it off?

Jenny D 5:13 [Professional Backgrounds]

Yeah, sure. So thanks so much for having us. This is. Yeah, it's a topic I think James and I both are really interested in and excited about and committed to given our backgrounds and kind of where we are in our professional lives now. So just as a bit of background, so I'm a sociologist, I'm working in Australia at the Australian National University. But I got my start in Sociology at Radford University in the early 2000s. Working under a professor named Jeanne Mekolichick who involved myself and James and a whole cohort of undergraduate students in some of her community based research projects. From that, that really sort of spurred an interest in sociology and the research process, which I was able to bring with me to go to graduate school at Texas A&M, on to a job at a small school in the US, James Madison University, and now kind of overseas, where I've been lucky enough to work with a lot of undergraduate and graduate students over here to kind of pay back some of the experiences that I that I was given that kind of got me to this point.

Venkat Raman 6:33

Awesome. James.

James C 6:36

Yeah, I mean, much of my story is Jenny's story, because we, I mean, we met in our, in our sociology class at Radford University in Jeanne's class, and we both became her little research assistants and undergrad, and that kind of helped to kind of plant that seed of interested doing research and, and to develop those competencies. And we took that to graduate school together. And, you know, and and I just kept following Jenny everywhere. So then I ended up in Australia too. And unlike Jenny, I don't supervise graduate students by but I have over. I have have helped undergrads complete their honors theses and internship projects. And, and that's where I'm at now.

Venkat Raman 7:37

How did you get into undergraduate research? You said, you know, with Jeanne at Radford now. What, What was it about? Why did you get into it, you think? Or what was a class project that grew? Or how, what was the genesis of all that? Maybe Jenny, you can start first and then proceed?

Jenny D 7:56 [Getting into UG Research]

Yeah, well, I'll be interested to hear what what James has to say to actually about this, because it seems like we were just in it. I think we, you know, Radford University is a relatively small school. And I think for though, one of the really nice things about that is that for the students who are really committed to a subject matter, there's a lot of opportunity to become directly involved and work really closely with your professors. And so James and I, we met in a sociology class, we were probably the most enthusiastic sociology students in the program at the time. And so we, you know, so we would talk to Jean and our other professors after class all the time, we kind of learned about the opportunities available, she very quickly kind of swept us into the projects that she was doing, and we enthusiastically joined. I don't actually, maybe James, maybe you do. I don't actually remember joining, I just remember sort of very immediately, being part of undergraduate research kind of as soon as I became a sociology major, and working with a small cohort of other students and with her to kind of understand that process. But yeah, and James, you actually did research with with Denise Colton, as well with others as well. So maybe you have a better memory of how you got there.

James C 9:20

So I remember both I remember. So Jeanne Mikolichick was doing research on the we're doing community research and the Women's Resource Center for Virginia and the project was kind of present it kind of put out there that this is what Jeanne was doing. And Denise Colton was doing researchers on thru hikers, and she approached me about a summer project of transcribing and learning that skill. But I just remember being when I was at Radford University and an undergrad just thinking to myself already had the ambition of going on to graduate school and, you know, seeing this academic career through and being very ambitious, and then looking to be part of everything and anything that could help that effort, and wanting to learn the skills as quickly as possible that would help me become a one day in academic. And so I remember approaching Jean who asked me if I could be a part of the project, and she was enthusiastically let me be a part of that. But and I do think it was, it's one of those things too, like getting involved in academic research is one of the things that really does matter. I think when you're when you when you go on to, to graduate school, when you make those, you have those applications, and the professors see what you've been involved in as they're evaluating you. I remember when I went to graduate school, and I was talking to some of the people that actually evaluated my application. And I had done all these things to get there. Like one of the things was I joined like an honors fraternity. And they really didn't care about that at all. But the research matters. Research was a big deal.

Venkat Raman 11:05

So what what what was the topic? Or what do you guys, What was the initial research topic Like? at Radford?

Jenny D 11:21 [Initial Research Topics]

Yeah, well, so one of the things that that Jeanne did, and I think this evolved over the years, but one of the things that she did is she found community based projects that she was really committed to and interested in, but also that would be accessible to new researchers.

And so she and the kind of thing that you could kind of cycle new people into advance them through it, have them train each other and go out.

So the project that we came in on was evaluative research for a Women's Resource Center. And so what we did is we worked with the staff at the Resource Center to help develop a survey for clients, who were really accessing this service, to understand their experiences at the center, as well as their needs and how they can be better met.

And so that was kind of the one that that brought us in, I think she's I think she's since done other versions of that and expanded upon it, but it was very concrete, and apply, apply, applied and rooted in the needs of these very local community members. But then what she did with us, too, is sort of said, Okay, well, here's like, the specific thing they need. And, and she was really careful about showing us how not just the research process, but how our theories of sociology that we were, you know, learning in the classroom, can be applied to help us better understand the experiences, and the the inputs that were coming back on this survey.

So how do we design a survey? In a way it's theoretically and sociologically informed? And then how do we interpret that given our sociological lens? And how do we translate that for these practitioners who have very real needs and goals that we're here to serve?

Venkat Raman 13:15

You know, you said you kind of probably slid into it, or you were in it. What, what was that experience, like?

James C 13:24 [The Research Experience]

I remember being pretty excited to be a part of something that was so applied, like the idea was, it was very immediate in terms of where we saw the benefits of the researchers, we were helping a Women's Resource Center. And that felt kind of really exciting to me.

Right now I'm teaching at the Australian National University, I'm teaching a class called public sociology, which is all about kind of transcending the boundaries of the academia. And the students are, are meant to kind of develop their own project that they could have some kind of, like, immediate application to application to the world.

And so and that's one of the things that like, you know, we were doing with Jeanne was something that didn't feel like it was. didn't feel like it was so exclusive to the academia, it felt like we're having real world effects. And so it was really kind of exciting to be on the ground and feeling like you were doing something with the knowledge that you were receiving from university. And that, you know, that I think that would drive us and energize us and, and being a part of this project.

Jenny D 14:36

Yeah. And well, and also, I think there was like, such a nice brass tacks to it, like,

we were having direct conversations with the staff at the resource center. So we knew, you know, we were having this direct community engagement and we knew what they needed and we were seeing face to face the people who are benefiting from this research, the the, the locality of it was, I think, really powerful and then all

So like just the brass tacks skills, like, we're going to put together a survey, and then we're going to show it to the people who need to use that survey, and then they're going to give us feedback.

And then we'll revise that survey, and then we'll give that survey to people.

And then we'll get to practice analyzing quantitative data.

And then we'll get to practice translating that into graphs and figures and into a story.

And so there's this real kind of stepwise process that was deeply tied or intimately tied to the outcome in a way that was, I think, really demystifying for someone who was new to research.

Sure. Yeah. And and also just a really powerful, as James said, really powerful and energizing to see the immediate impact.

Venkat Raman 15:49

Now did you do multiple such projects during the undergraduate years, or, you know, how was that organized?

Jenny D 16:00 [Other Research Topics]

Yeah, well, we had, so when, in a way, so we had a research methods class going on concurrently with the sort of external research experience. And so that class, we did get to do kind of like our own little miniature independent research projects. And it was all about kind of survey construction and data analysis. That was really helpful in skill building, I think. But the main sort of research output for me was was jeans project of community engagement with a women's resource center. But James, you did a second project working under another professor as well.

James C 16:43

That's true, it didn't let it was a very short project, I was just did a small bit of coding. But I would say the more extensive and kind of the more involved project was with Gene and working on the data set, because, you know, we construct the survey, but we then we also ran regressions, you know, designed the codebook. And it really got our hands in the data. And it was very useful. And in terms of building skills, I felt like and kind of like seeing how statistical data can kind of like, come to fruition. So I Yeah, and that was that, that was, that was really nice, because with Gene, we were at the same time taking her research methods class. So it was it was really kind of, you know, build the skills in the class or, and try to work out how to understand how these, how these regressions work, and how the statistics actually kind of map on to the empirical. And then we could immediately use those in this research in a way that was viable, and came to had some kind of immediate effect was very gratifying. And oh, and it was really helpful for us to kind of like, really have a sense of like, oh, we truly are building a competency here, we, you know, we truly do have this new skill.

Venkat Raman 18:18

So what would you say? Were the big takeaways, at the end of that experience? You know, personally, or project wise or otherwise?

Jenny D 18:33 [UG Research Takeaways]

Great question. I mean, yeah, I think some of the big there were, I think, a lot of big takeaways. But if I had to kind of distill for me, the big takeaways, one was the the power of research, to be able to take, you know, these kind of abstract ideas, turn them into a U turn or operationalize them into a means of collecting data. And then to take that data, turn it into not just a story, but into an effect was really powerful. So I think it really showed us the power of research.

And I think it really showed a big takeaway was also the process of research. So you saw what it could do. But you also it also kind of pulled back the curtain right? So when you're a student, you're reading all of these papers and studies etc, in you know, in all of your classes, and how those papers came to be is really glossed over, even though there's like a Research Methods section and what you're in what you're reading, it doesn't feel like you could replicate what they did, and it feels really smooth and clean and neat.

But when you do the actual process, then not only do you kind of understand how the, how the process works, and you get this skill, you'll also become a much better reader and thinker. Because now you sort of understand what these words that they're saying in a fancy method section mean, and how that shaped the research that outputs that you're now that you're now digesting.

Venkat Raman 20:15

How about you, James?

James C 20:16

Yeah, I remember I agree with all that I do.

One of the things I just wanted to add to that is, like, even like kind of what it means to troubleshoot and work through problems, because the process wasn't entirely smooth all the time.

And I think that's, and that's part of experiential learning, right? It's the fact that like, you have to work through the problems, I remember, there was a, you know, we had to like check the data set. And there was a, there's a time that, I think there we had an issue with like a miscoding. And we had to, and it was just kind of like learning how to read data in a way where you can figure out those problems, make sure you know, the the numbers are reading, right, as expected, as planned. And, again, and just getting a sense of a real kind of like, a feel for how, how the data should look and, and just kind of working through those problems I felt was like, really, you know, whether or not it was such a hands on experience, kind of like, we're like, I feel like the best knowledge always comes through, like when you can kind of do things through a bit of trial and error where you make mistakes, and then you see how to correct those mistakes. And, and it's in the correction that you kind of really get a sense of how it works. And yeah, and that was really, really beneficial and helped me feel more confident after that experience that I did understand, you know, why the what what was actually occurring with these regressions, what they were accomplishing. And it wasn't just these abstract formulas that I, I had a surface level orientation to.

Venkat Raman 21:58

I had a question for both of you. I mean, you know, you mentioned that you guys were very enthusiastic. students and researchers.

Now, what fraction of the class maybe the sociology class? did research? Was it a reasonable fraction of the class? Or was it a small number?

James C 22:18 [Student Participation]

I would say was pretty small. What didn't you Jana? I would say, yeah, it was I can only remember about four or five of us have the the entire sociology department.

Venkat Raman 22:31

Okay, yeah. Just curious. Yeah.

Jenny D 22:34

I think that changed in later years. So my under so so everybody, so everybody took the research methods, classes, so everybody was kind of doing research. But in terms of doing this, outside of class, like community based projects, it was a much it was, you know, a handful, like James said, I do think that in subsequent years, they organized the program, so that the research methods class was rooted in a community based research projects. So even the people who weren't doing the kind of extra one on one, you know, kind of targeted research projects, were doing that kind of applied work that we had the opportunity to do.

Venkat Raman 23:16

Now, I thought, before we jump into grad school, and the experience there, I just wanted to sort of ask you guys, why each of you picked sociology, I mean, you know, just just from a, as a major, where did that interest come from? Or how did you sort of end up there?

Jenny D 23:41 [Why Sociology?]

Yeah, so I guess, I guess I can start. Yeah. Yeah. So um, I should say this in going into university when I was starting university, I had no idea who I was or what I wanted to do. So it was though, though, James and I are both sitting here saying we were the most enthusiastic sociologists. And we very much were, that does not for either one of us come from a history of always wanting to be a sociologist, or even for that matter. I hope you don't mind me, outing the students, but either of us being especially high achieving high school students, I think we, we got to, you know, I think for both of us in our head, our various pathways of getting to university discovering a passion for a subject matter that we didn't necessarily know we would be so passionate about, and then following that into into a really committed research stream. But so the way that I was introduced to sociology and developed it as a major is because I was it started out with the intention to study communication and public relations. And so I was in my first year and I was taking a class in public relations. At the same time that I was taking a class in social problems out of state analogy with GMAC logic. And so in this public eye, and what it turned out is that it was kind of learning the same thing from very different angles in both classes. So in my public relations class, I was learning all about how to spin stories for corporate benefit, essentially. And at the same time, I mean, this social problems class, and I'm learning all about how powerful actors use spin to enact their power and sustain their status. And also how, you know, through through strategic sort of social movements, we could also spin our stories in ways that promoted social social justice and social responsibility, etc. And I decided I liked that version better. Yeah. Yeah. And, and so and so then I, you know, talk to all the sociologists at Radford that I could find and very quickly jumped into a sociology major from there.

Venkat Raman 26:02

Interesting, how about you, James?

James C 26:04

Yeah, you know, it's, I really enjoyed this question because I, I think about it all the time with my undergrads, the students, I teach how they live in a very different world than I did in terms of entering sociology and what it means to acquire sociological consciousness. But Jenny and I were in undergrad at a time in which, you know, sociology didn't have the success it has today in terms of entering the popular discourse. And I kind of think today, like some of these narratives that we learned, excuse me, some of these discourses we've learned in sociology, have really kind of had a lot of traction, in terms of the critiques and in the public imagination, but it wasn't so much so at the time that I was an undergrad, at least not to the same extent as now. And the ideas came across to us is far more provocative. And far more like, am I sociologically, if I was just like, wow, this is, you know, this kind of like offering these like really cutting critiques of society and finding that very satisfying and attractive and just feeling like you know, to do sociology was to be someone that was interested in, you know, fighting the good fight and being a part of the world. Now, there is a bit of romance, I think, B being an undergrad where you feel like, you know, as you study sociology, you're becoming a revolutionary, and then you go to grad school, and you kind of realized, well, that's not exactly right. Yeah, yeah, I was, I was kind of I was definitely the discipline was very, very attractive to me. And it's, and it's orientation to you know, there's a big emphasis on critiquing the power structures and alleviating inequality and on these things are things that I want to be a part of.

Venkat Raman 27:48

You after undergrad U. Turns out both of you went off to grad school, Texas A&M.

Now, the question I have is, how much was the undergraduate research? So whatever you learned, impact that decision was? I mean, I know James, you said you were kind of always, you know, you are kind of desirous of doing such a thing. How about your journey?

Jenny D 28:17 [Impact of UG Research]

Yeah, I mean, I was I was too in the sense that sort of, as soon as I discovered sociology, I pretty quickly thought, This is what I want to do with my life. And so and so I came to understand that to do that with my life, I would probably need a graduate degree. And then if I wanted to get a graduate degree, I would need to do really well in my undergraduate. And so um, so sort of one side discovered sociology, I decided it was what I wanted to do, I knew I'd be would need to go to grad school and kind of geared the rest of my undergraduate career towards getting there. Yeah, so that's, that's kind of how I got there.

Venkat Raman 29:05

How about you, Jim? So I know, it was probably a continuation from your kids.

James C 29:08

Yeah, I guess. I just, yeah, it seemed like the, the most evident pathway to you know, being involved in sociological discourse and generating this type of knowledge was to go on and to pursue your graduate education. And I wanted more I, you know, undergrad wasn't, I want to stay in it. I want him to keep talking his ideas, developing his ideas. And, and so graduates graduate school was the next logical step, I guess.

Venkat Raman 29:40

So, what what made it possible for you to get into academia? I mean, why did you make that choice? Or was that a simple extension of what you're doing? James, maybe you could talk first.

James C 29:53

Oh, you know? Yeah, that's an interesting question. I remember We have these, I think I haven't done these in a few years. But as a, as a faculty member here at the AU, there are these kind of sit in sessions where you have to talk to prospective students. And I, Jenny and I went to one once and someone came up and they're like, What can I do a sociology undergraduate degree. And it was something that I rarely can like, you know, I was like, that's an undergrad, I never even thought about what can I do have an undergraduate degree in sociology and stuff, keep continuing my education. So I guess it was just one of these things where I like, I guess I was enjoying being in the academia so much, I, I never even considered leaving. Once I got to college, it kind of opened up a world for me in terms of how to think about the world. And I was just kind of like, Oh, I found the place to be I'm, I'm, I'm set. So I just I just kept wanting to pursue this kind of this way of, of looking at the world and talking about the world. So just never left, I guess.

Venkat Raman 31:08

How about you Jenny?

Jenny D 31:10

Yeah, I mean, kind of kind of similar, right? I sort of once I got in, I never wanted to leave, I will say, I had, I guess I had a bit of a change in how I and what I thought that would look like, like I in so in an you know, as an undergraduate student, I thought, Okay, well, like I for sure want to do this forever. So how do I do that I go get a PhD and the negative like, hopefully be in the academy. What I thought that would look like at that moment, and given just I think the framing that I had for what it meant to be in the academy was I wanted to primarily teach and do a little bit of research, the way that things have progressed, it's been very different. I've done a lot of teaching, but I've also been able to do a lot of research. And I think that the professional trajectory, has had it seeds in the undergraduate research process well, before I even knew how influential that would be, right? Like, like I was sort of developing these skills that would later come to kind of define my professional career. In many ways, even though the pathway to that I thought was going to look very different, like, you know, a lot of classroom teaching and a lot of you know, interaction with undergraduates in that classroom sort of setting. And it just, it just ended up looking really different.

Venkat Raman 32:35

I think would be fascinating to talk about, as you guys are faculty, and mentoring students for research. So what does it take to be a faculty mentor? I mean, doing what probably Jeanne was doing way back when? Jenny want to take a crack at that?

Jenny D 32:57 [Being a Faculty Mentor]

Yeah, well, it's what does it take to be a faculty mentor?

I think what it takes is make the big thing it takes, first of all, is making yourself available to students and letting them know that opportunities are there. So think very often, you get two kinds of students, you have a small group of very outgoing, enthusiastic, high achieving undergraduate students who will seek you out and say, Hey, are you doing research? Can I help with it? What are the internship opportunities? What would it look like if I were to do an honors project, which I should say here in Australia, and honors project is a full year of independent research, supervised by a faculty member. So it's a little bit different than the US, similar to like, if you do like a Masters by Research kind of situation. But so you have those students who really, you know, they know what they want to do. They know the opportunities are available, they come and get you.

But then there are other students who kind of wait for the invitation. And so I think part of what it means to be to to be a faculty mentor is to identify those students who seem really interested, but maybe wouldn't put themselves forward so readily wouldn't think of themselves as researchers and kind of then just talk to them about what opportunities are out there and what that could look like. And to do that kind of early, like, get them on internship projects kind of early, involve people in your projects early, even doing really small tasks, just so that they get a feel for what they might do and get a feel for what that might look like and kind of get the confidence to check in with themselves and see if it is something that maybe they'd like to pursue.

Venkat Raman 34:53

What do you think, James?

James C 34:54

Yeah, you know, I always go back and think about my own experience. is coming up as an undergrad with my own mentors and Jeanne was wonderful. But that as Jenny said, that was like a really, it was an a more intimate environment, it was a smaller university. And so we kind of had this, we're able to develop this relationship with the faculty that more readily. I do remember going to graduate school, and then really struggling to kind of like, connect with the faculty and become involved. To the on that level, because I was terrified of talking to them. I remember talking to another professor, when I was talking, and I was like, I'm thinking, sort of doing research in this direction of this professor, and he's, like, Well, have you talking to them yet? And I kind of like sheepishly was like, No, I haven't approached him yet. And you're like, because you're thinking you need to read every of all their books and all their articles before you ever say a word to them. And I was like, and I admit it, that that was true, because you know, there is this kind of needing to, you know, not come across, you feel this need to, to, you know, to prove yourself and to have something intelligent to say, and I remember the this faculty member saying, well, that's a terrible way to approach your academic career, because you'll spend a lot of time doing nothing, and you got to just get put yourself out there, you know, talk to the people that are doing work, and let them know you're interested, you don't you know, and that you're your student, you're, you don't, it's, you know, they're not, you're not necessarily looking for you to have the wisest thing to say, at this moment in your academic career. And so I try to when I engage with students, I try to be really receptive and encouraging. And an open, you know, I really do want to come across as when I engage with my undergrads that I'm approachable, and enthusiastic about their thinking. And so one of the like, one of the my techniques when I engage with students, and they kind of present me with ideas is I, I never shoot anything down. And I always try to even if it's, you know, because they're working, they may not have the language right yet, or they may, or maybe they're still thinking to the con, the concepts and the constructs by always tried to sell but you know, something of that a kernel of the idea that they're working with, even if it's a bit, even if it's a bit rough, and it needs refining. And, and I try to be enthusiastic. And it's easy for me to be enthusiastic, because I find that the students are so clever, clever ways that I never was. And it's really exciting. And I think that mutual enthusiasm between faculty and students, kind of like lends itself to a really exciting, kind of like, undergraduate research environment, because then you're both kind of like you both get hyped on each other. And you're like, All right, we're, we're developing something here.

Venkat Raman 37:48

Now, are you finding that in Australia, at ANU is that environment different for research compared to, Maybe Maybe Radford was too long, at a Texas A&M or any other places? I mean, what you might be hearing from your peers in the US?

Jenny D 38:12 [UG Research in US vs Australia]

Well, I think it's the [], there's a lot of differences, largely because of the just the Australian system. So like one of the big differences that I think is really interesting. And I'd actually be curious to talk to some more sort of talk more about this with like other US sociologists and see what this looks like there. So our undergraduate program in Australia is three years. And that's your base program. Within that there are opportunities for internships, which those internships generally, are you doing kind of a miniature research project. But then you can apply if you've sort of done well, in your first three years, you can apply for a fourth year. And that fourth year, is all is an independent research project. And it's really extensive, and it's externally evaluated. And it becomes the pathway by which if you want to do a PhD, you have to send I mean, you don't have to, but it's the main the main way that people would access a PhD program is by doing an undergraduate thesis that received a high external mark. So we have this very, you know, sort of high stakes research opportunity. It's very rich, but also high stakes research opportunity. That is, I think, at least compared to us, schools, something that's very different. And there, I think you're being kind of prepared for that through your first three years by doing a lot of like writing tasks and learning about the research process in your coursework.

Venkat Raman 39:57

I see. So James, are there more, or a bigger percentage of students doing research? You think?

James C 40:04

Yeah, I mean, we're my current location, I think there is a much bigger percentage of students doing research and, and the students, especially here at the AU, in use a very, I mean, to my understanding is a, it's a competitive prestigious university. And I think more so than the ones, Jenny and I, it's hard to say, I mean, comparing the American and Australian schools, but um, the students here are highly motivated, highly motivated. I think it's funny because Jenny and I came from an environment where, when we were an undergrad, like we really, I mean, we showed so much enthusiasm, but it was so easy for us to stand out, we felt like big fish in a small pond. But here, they all the students seem motivated, and they are all ambitious, and, and trying to, you know, advance in their academic career. So I would imagine that a, an undergraduate here, it feels, doesn't have the same sense, it takes a bit more to stand out, I would imagine if I was an undergrad here.

Venkat Raman 41:18

So I thought one of the things to talk about would be, what kind of skills? Do you think one develops by doing research?

I mean, we can take turns and talk about it. So Jenny, maybe you want to go first? I mean, just over the years, what kind of skills did you develop and characteristics that you think you could attribute to research? Having done?

Jenny D 41:44 [Skills Developed with Research]

Yeah, well, so I think there are like practical skills and attributes, and then personal skills and attributes, if we're thinking about what you get from user, so the practical skills and and attributes, I think one of the most practical skills and attributes is understanding the link between theory methods and data, and then analysis and outcomes, right.

So understanding how when you go into the field and try to empirically understand something, whether that be qualitatively, quantitatively, or some combination of those, what you're doing is drawing on abstract ideas, and then operationalizing them somehow some way in the real world.

And so understanding how those abstract ideas fit with and into some kind of empirical reality, and how that creates a dataset from which you can tell a story is a practical skill, that is so much harder than you would expect. And you can only learn by doing it. So that's sort of the really important practical skill that you obtained in doing undergraduate research.

I think a personal, you know, a personal skill that you obtain is something James mentioned earlier, which is troubleshooting, dealing with uncertainty and remaining, remaining active and ready when things don't work out and kind of expecting things not to work out, right.

The research process is so messy, and it's really hard. And you have to sort of trust in yourself that you can do hard things, you have to trust in your faculty mentors, that they'll guide you through those, those hard things.

And that when it doesn't go as expected, that doesn't mean the whole thing is a flop it means you need to maybe maybe that thing that you thought was the project is actually a pretest. Or maybe those results that were no turn out to tell a really different and interesting and surprising story. But a relationship of a relationship of openness to the data and the process and a readiness to move and change with it is a characteristic that really comes out of research and can't be overemphasized.

James C 43:57

Yeah, that's right. If I could just elaborate on Sure. Show me I love this observation to about a really like it's one of the things I find so useful for getting undergraduates involved in research.

It's one of the underdeveloped skills, or is this idea of connecting an analytical observation to an empirical circumstance and to actual data. And so, you know, I think we you kind of get introduced into discipline and a, in a way that kind of talks through ideas and circumstances without talking to him without kind of like a initially kind of like introducing the student to how are these observations being made in a very systematic, responsible way?

And so I think there's a lot of potential for students to kind of start Theorizing the world kind of radically without a sense of like, well, I need to ground my observations and how do I do that? And so that's one of the skills it's really important for, I think, for students to learn what it means to do sociology is to figure out how to ground your observations how to feel confident in them.

So you're not just developing a heuristic, you're developing something that's you're developing a an object, an analytical observation that you come back with data that you can, that you can feel sound scientifically with. And, and that's really exciting to kind of help students wrap their heads around how that how that occurs.

And, and the power in that, and the ways in which like, you know, not all knowledge systems are created equally, and what it means to have a knowledge system that you can rely upon. And, you know, that's very rewarding and helping students to see, you know, theory in a new way, you know, and then to connect theory to methods and what theories are reliable, and what theories perhaps are less so.

And then Jenny, brought up that second point, too. I'm sorry, Jenny, can you repeat the lesson? You said? troubleshooting, troubleshooting, troubleshooting. Yes, yes, yes.

And, you know, troubleshooting, to the, like, even being involved in research, and the idea of like, when something goes wrong when I'm teaching this class now, and I'm teaching public sociology, which is encouraging the students to develop their own projects, and to kind of get their hands and, you know, in the world and start doing things, and one of the things that's nice about this course, in terms of experiential learning is that the prop students will develop very ambitious projects, and there are large percentages of their projects that fall apart. And it falls, and you know, and things don't work out.

And so I think, like, that's part of the research process, too, is that, like, you may have a desire to do a certain form of research, but you have to figure out how to make adjustments along the way, you know, the data that you are going after, doesn't necessarily come together. Or if you acquire it, it doesn't kind of like come together on the way you thought it would come together, you know, in Chinese and experimentalist. And they will like run these elaborate experiments.

And at the end of the experiment, sometimes, you know, your hypothesis doesn't work out, right. And we're finding that and so, and I don't, you know, not to get too technical or into into the weeds here in terms of the esoteric nature of the discipline, but we don't publish as often findings that are negative, in terms of like, you didn't confirm your hypothesis, and then what do you do with that? And so just figuring out how to manage those problems. You know, getting involved in the undergraduate research, it's like, it's really rewarding in that way helps you think through, you know, not to fall apart when things don't work out, you know, you always got to kind of like be on your toes and, and adapt.

Jenny D 47:53

Well, and just to really quickly to build on one point on top of that, is that as a faculty researcher, working with undergraduate students, lightens the blow of a project that fell apart so much, it's like leaving, it's like such a bomb, right? Like, if I'm like, so you know, okay, so we did this research, and it totally didn't work like we expected it to.

One of the really nice things is if I'm working with an undergraduate on that project, I think, Okay, well, this was a good learning experience for them. Even if the project itself never gets off the ground, there was this sort of thing achieved with it. So selfishly, I appreciate that.

Venkat Raman 48:37 [Dealing with Wrong Hypothesis]

Just curiosity-wise, what fraction of the research goes that way where the hypothesis is, you cannot prove it or whatever. It doesn't fall apart?

Jenny D 48:51

Um, great question. I mean, I think

James C 48:56

most almost, yeah. Well, go ahead, please, Jenny, please.

Jenny D 49:04

So I was just gonna say that, um, I was gonna say that most projects, at least partially confirmed some of the hypotheses. Okay. But often, this will take getting there, though. And the reason for that is because most of the times hypotheses are theoretically based. So there's good reason that those hypotheses would work out.

Like you're not just making them up out of your head. And usually, it's based on a you know, a trajectory of existing research. With that said, there's a really extensive period of pre testing to make sure that you are measuring everything properly, and if the data are coming back, weird or unexpected. There's a real period of investigating the measures that you're using and the population that you're studying, etc, to like, understand what's going on. And what's going on there.

So it's a lot of kind of trial and error on the way to hypothesis testing. Got it,

James C 50:08

which is more of an issue with quantitative research and qualitative research. But you also, I mean, you like I was just thinking, like, you also have the burden of like, when a whenever you perform research at the undergraduate level, or you know, at the professional level, the graduate school level, you have to worry about, like, satisfying the ethics requirements of the institution. Right.

And so and that's another like, that's another layer of nuance, and troubleshooting, you know, why often find like, when working with undergrads, you know, is that is your research Bible, not just in the sense that you can actually you have access to the community you want to study or the data you need to acquire, but also in the sense that the institution feels comfortable with you performing that research.

And that could be like, you know, and that's another thing that is interesting to see students work through, you know, and, and the time sensitive nature of it, you're trying to get a project done, and then you kind of you submit something for review, you expect it to be really a kind of like a quick and easy process, and then they send you back, it's kind of like, well, no, not so fast. We're, we feel really hesitant. And you know, and sometimes it you know, those issues that they draw attention to make a lot of sense to you. And you say, Oh, I could see why you have a problem with this, let me, let me kind of like work through these issues. And so the institution feels more comfortable. And then other times, you know, it's not immediately evident to you why they have a problem with your research, or why that would be controversial or problematic in any way. And so that's interesting, too, because the research process is also learning how to just manage being in it in an institutional setting, and appeasing that institution as you're trying to perform this sophisticated analysis.

Venkat Raman 52:01

Okay, so switching gears a little bit. Any advice for high schoolers about doing research? When they set foot on campus? You know, there's a lot of lot of discussion around freshmen starting to do research rather than waiting for their, you know, sophomores, upper classes. So, what do you think high schoolers could be doing or should be doing to develop some of those skills?

James C 52:37 [Advice for High Schoolers]

Well, I mean, if there's access, and, and those opportunities are available, I mean, the earlier you can get involved, and the more knowledge, research methods, knowledge and competencies you can develop early on is always going to give make you far more competitive as you're applying to schools. And as you're trying to expand your opportunities. And that's something you know, I wish when I was in high school, I had that kind of foresight, I mean, I really did not, but, you know, things are just, you know, are just getting more competitive. So like, the earlier you can kind of acquire those skills, I would say the better. And if you have that kind of discipline, and that kind of enthusiasm, you know, seek them out, seek out those opportunities. And, you know, it would only help you to have those, those resources.

Venkat Raman 53:34

What do you think, Jenny?

Jenny D 53:35

Yeah, I think that's right, I think, you know, get in early. And I think one of the things to know about the research process is that every project has a million tasks that need to be done. And those tasks operate at different levels. So there's, so if you have zero experience in research, there's still stuff you can do it, you could help filing paperwork, you can help, you know, the more sort of logistic bureaucratic kinds of tasks and then as you and then you're just sort of around it, right, and you ambiently come to understand the research and you and so, and then you can kind of advance through more of the substantive tasks on the research project. But know that even with no experience whatsoever, there's a task for you on that project, and the project will benefit from your presence. And so I think in that sense, like as a high school student, maybe read research whenever you can, as you think about university, look into your professors and like what kind of research are they doing, and then just sort of talk to them because they're humans and ask, you know, they need me help what they can do and be willing to do the kind of small tasks that are suited to somebody new to the process so that you can work your way up to doing the more challenging tasks that come with experience.

Venkat Raman 54:57

Okay, so Jenny, James, we're just starting to wind down here. Before I let you guys go, be great if you could share some interesting vignette or memory from your research very undergraduate or graduate, something that listeners might like?

James C 55:19 [Memories]

Sure, I think I'll start us off. Sure. I remember. So I'll talk about in graduate school, there was a moment where I was working under someone who was doing color, he was a research assistant for someone doing research on corporate malfeasance. And he had this huge collection of like, collecting data on fortune 500 companies. And I remember, that felt a bit, it felt very kind of overwhelming, I remember and him kind of like, just saying, like, Okay, here's the data set, go have at it. And, you know, to Jenny's point where, you know, like, the earlier you get involved, you start to grow familiar, uncomfortable around being around data. And I remember being so terrified, like this, you know, like, and then no one will, no one was given me any kind of guide on like, how to approach this, this massive data set and what you know, and just feeling like, if I start to touch this thing, I'm going to destroy it. And it felt very nerve wracking, and then I had to, but then, you know, as you spend time with anything, you kind of it starts to make sense to you, it becomes familiar to you, it becomes tangible. And so, I do think there is, there's, there's a benefit, like the the earlier, you can get your hands on data and different types of research, and how people collect it up, you start to develop that kind of that sense of familiarity, which is, it's so beneficial to be able to gain that confidence and to jump into research right away and earlier. And, you know, it's, it's also really exciting, because you feel like you're making a change in the world.

One more anecdote was a, I also helped with research, I worked under another professor, who was studying war crimes while I was in graduate school. And both both of these things like studying corporate malfeasance with Fortune 500 companies and studying war crimes, I mean, I feel like you're, you're studying, like really consequential things that have like, an existential weight to them. And that was, you know, that was really rewarding. I really felt like, you know, I felt a sense of the magnitude and the importance of it, which is, it could be overwhelming, but also, you know, it's exciting, because it's a way of like, being a part of the world that feels, you know, like, you're there's a, you're having an effect, you're effectuating change, hopefully, and, and I just remember, like, there's a, there's something being a young new scholar, and being a part of that for the first time. That's just it's so energizing. It's, it's just an exciting and exciting way to be in the world and a great experience.

Venkat Raman 58:11

Fantastic. How about you, Jenny? Any closing memories?

Jenny D 58:17

Yeah, well, so when one thing that kind of stands out to me, or that I remember really well, and it kind of continued, this is the thing that happened once that has also happened since so when we were finishing our time at Radford and finishing our research experience. We were given, Jeanne gave us the opportunity to write a journal article together with her. And so she did you know, the generous thing and said, Okay, you know, she liked it, wrote it, and said, Look, here's this tiny little, you know, here's this, like, tiny little element, and can you draft a section for that.

And I spent really, like, I felt really uncomfortable. I was like, I don't know how to do this. But like, tried it, spent a lot of time wrote the thing. It was like, wait, you know, it was like, way too much. She said, thank you and said she loved it. And then like, translated this whole, you know, a really sort of thing I had overwritten into like two beautiful sentences, just to filter down. And I remember at the time, just being in awe of how she did that. And, and not I wasn't offended by it. I was it was like, Okay, here's the model of sort of, here's my version of it, and then what that could look like professionally, you know, it was just really appreciative of that. And then sort of my graduate school advisor Jane, Zell did sort of similar things with me later. Later, as I developed my own research skills, in that I would kind of get to try something, do it sort of poorly, and then they would remake it as it needed to be. And that was such an effective learning process for me.

And now I you know, do that with would do that with my students. But I think the that process of trying something I didn't quite some trying to do something I couldn't quite do. But then seeing that work transformed into its best self was so powerful and something that I don't know that I would have thought to do. But now is like one of my sort of go to tactic with students who are learning about the research process.

Venkat Raman 1:00:25

Great, great stories. Okay, so Jenny, James, thank you so much for taking the time. And talking about your research undergraduate and at the graduate level, and all sharing all the insights and all the learnings and I'm sure we'll talk more, but for right now, thank you so much. Take care. I'll talk to you soon,

James C 1:00:48

Thanks for, Thanks for having us. It was awesome.

Venkat Raman 1:00:52

Thank you so much.

Jenny D 1:00:53

Bye,

Venkat Raman 1:00:54

bye bye.

--------------------

Venkat 1:00:59

Hi again!

Hope you enjoyed our podcast with Drs Jenny Davis and James Chouinard of Australian National University about their experiences as Undergraduate Researchers and now as Faculty Mentors.

Specifically, they covered:

How they got involved in UG Research at Radford;
The Experiential Learnings;
Impact of the UG Research on their future;
Role as Faculty Research Mentors now;
Finally, their advice to high schoolers.

I hope you consider research during your undergraduate years as you make your undergraduate journey.

For your questions or comments on this podcast, please email podcast at almamatters.io [podcast@almamatters.io].

Thank you all so much for listening to our podcast today.

Transcripts for this podcast and previous podcasts are on almamatters.io forward slash podcasts [almamatters.io/podcasts].

To stay connected with us, Subscribe to Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts or Spotify or visit anchor.fm forward slash almamatters [anchor.fm/almamatters] to check us out.

Till we meet again, take care and be safe.

Thank you!

Summary Keywords

Podcast for High Schoolers, College Majors, US Colleges, College Podcast, Undergraduate Research Podcast, UG Research Podcast, High School Students, College-bound UG Research, undergraduate research, Australian National University, Canberra, ANU, Radford University, Texas A&M, Sociology

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